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Post by Kully on Feb 2, 2004 10:35:43 GMT
I would like to express my shock at last night's events in the Tzigane thread. I will assume that this is just a one off and that the thread got carried away with itself, but honestly - players are meant to respect each other and taking over someone else's storyline just because they are not online is just not fair. To clear this up: Storylines are set by one person. The rep can change things as pleased though not to mess up the player's storyline (i.e. common decency), and as for the person who created the storyline - most aspects are at their discretion. The threads are usually planned in detail and changing them without consent can be very hurtful. Changing someone's storyline is comparable to me taking one of your characters and telling you that it has been changed. For example, if I chose to state "Tom Troughton has now been wiped of all his powers permanently" (don't worry, Tom!), the owner of the character would be incredibly upset because that is half the character gone. Roleplaying is not always steering a storyline - it is reacting to the events put before you, just like real life, and often you have very little control and must think on your feet. 'Puppets' is not a term I would use, but that is someone's opinion and I cannot change that. Please feel free to express your opinions on this. Yes, some people do not have as much time as others to post, and threads can move slowly, but sometimes these things happen. It cannot be helped and a little patience never hurt anyone. Thank you for taking the time to read this and hopefully this viewpoint is a little more understood.
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Post by Hordriss de Confuseur on Feb 2, 2004 12:10:31 GMT
May I be the first to apologise publically for my behaviour over this thread. When I first joined this forum, before I understood the rules, I added the element of the Bloodfang Blade to Tzegane's story. After being pm-ed by her and apologising for it, she told me that she was going to use this blade in the story, and so I watched the story until it was mentioned. I also pm-ed Tom and Ursula on how to react if the blade should attempt to take over their minds. This is the point where there was a communications breakdown. I failed to suggest to Tom and Ursula to wait until after Tzegane was laid to rest before being affected by the blade, as I had promised to Tzegane in my pms. Seeing that they had (quite understandably) misinterpreted my intentions, I entered the story as Hordriss in an attempt to draw attention to this blade and away from the Tzegane part of the plot so that she would not have her story interfeared with. However, when the locket was found I wrongly allowed it to continue without checking to see if this should have happened yet. This is neither an excuse nor a justification, merely an apology, and to make clear that I was in no way trying to take away Tzigane's story. I have not deleted any of my posts because I rarely refer to the locket, and never to its opening, but if she wishes I will delete myself and the knife thread from the post and have said so in a pm to her. I apologise again for not recognising the limits of the roleplaying. I hope I can still remain amongst friends David
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Post by Kully on Feb 2, 2004 18:41:08 GMT
I really don't think anyone will have any hard feelings towards it. The general message here is in future do not speak for other characters, especially if they are not online. If the threads stops for the night, it stops for the night. Please do not delete any posts as the thread seems to be back on track, unless Tzigane has any problems? Thanks, all.
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Post by Tom Troughton on Feb 2, 2004 18:56:16 GMT
I also apolagise for last nights inceident.
If Tzgain dose have a problem I will alter any posts that are corsing the problem.
I also let communication break down I should have cheeked with Tzgain Or Hordriss on how the story was ment to pan out befor jummping the gun.
Richard
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Post by Ursula on Feb 2, 2004 23:30:56 GMT
I'd like to apologise as well, the thread should have been put on hold much earlier. I think it got out of control due to a mixture of overenthusiasm (it might be problematic, but it is the sign of a good RPG) and impatience. If Tzigane wants me to edit or delete any posts, then just say so and it'll be done. It's not like they're Shakespeare or anything. ;D
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Tzigane
Traveller
This is my Knightmare
Posts: 25
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Post by Tzigane on Feb 3, 2004 11:30:57 GMT
No problems now - is all pretty much sorted. Anyway, she's resting now and the thread can end in any way you guys like Thanks for the cooperation. These things happen in roleplay and so long as people know now after this incident what is unacceptable then us long time -players will have no probems and be able to guide noobs, right?
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Post by SaxonStorm on Feb 27, 2004 12:01:38 GMT
I have received several abusive e-mails from another individual on this forum who will remain nameless unless they send me another one. The gist of their argument seems to be that I'm a b*st*rd tantrum-thrower for leaving the forum at the start of the month. So, although I've tried to handle things behind closed doors to this point, here are the real reasons why I left the RP forum.
I would like to stress before I begin my response that I have only revived Saxon for the sake of being able to make this post, and I will re-terminate him on Sunday, after I've given time for people to answer me if they wish. (I also apologise in advance to Kully for not clearing this with her first but bluntly she's made that pretty difficult for me. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if she decided to delete this post the moment she sees it, but whatever she thinks I have a right to try to defend myself when people are condemning me without hearing my side of the argument.)
I am still very annoyed about the way I was thrown into the Tzigane storyline - which I'd only agreed to do as a personal favour to Kully in the first place - with almost no guidance or right of input. I could handle missing out on one or the other, but not both. What seemed to happen was that Tzigane sent me a PM saying "This is what you're doing, now go and do it." She told me to tell her if there was anything I didn't understand, but it was quite clear that she wasn't open to me suggesting any alternative ideas.
Kully disputes my use of the term "puppets", which I find bizarre because I can't see what else it was. Every time I offered up an idea to make my part in the story a bit more interesting, I was flatly refused. Korrlok was a very dull, one-dimensional figure and I was bored out of my brains playing him. I wanted to give him an interesting angle, (we never even found out why he came back as a ghost, which makes for a serious McGuffin problem) anything that could help maintain my own interest. But any attempt to introduce something, even something minor that wouldn't extend the thread to any serious degree, was thrown back in my face. I'm suddenly not sure what Kully's definition is, but that is not roleplaying, it's acting, improvisation at the absolute most, which is something else entirely. This is supposed to be Knightmare, not Whose Line Is It Anyway?
In any case, if all they wanted was someone to play a completely empty, predetermined character, why didn't Tzigane just play both roles? Korrlok was such a cipher it would've been no trouble at all for her, and as all she wanted was someone to do what she'd already decided, I really can't see why they bothered dragging anyone else in to play the part in the first place.
I could've put up with it of course, except for one problem - I was being puppeteered by an absent puppeteer. I understand and appreciate that Tzigane can't get online often, but when it comes right down to it, she shouldn't have been allowed to place such heavy restrictions on a thread in the first place if she wasn't going to be there to guide it. If Kully really wanted her to have a thread, it should've been implemented a lot more liberally for the sake of the other players involved. It's just not fair otherwise as the only person who was actually going to enjoy the story was Tzigane herself. Why should the rest of us revolve around one player, especially when that one player only makes one post every two days? And before anyone tries to claim otherwise, I wasn't the only one who was disgruntled about it, believe me. Others have admitted to me that they were very aggravated but they simply maintained a discreet silence in public.
The thread was unbelievably slow when it was so boring that I wanted to get it over and done with. I was given no freedom of action whatsoever when I was also being given very little clear guidance. And I was playing a nothing-character for whom I had all sorts of ideas that were just pushed aside, sometimes before I could even voice them. I apologise for my part in hijacking the thread on the Sunday evening, that was unacceptable of me. But I'd already been in the part for over ten days and had only done about two posts, and the story showed few signs of getting anywhere at all. Like I say above, I'd decided to maintain a respectful silence up until then, but I was now feeling very sore about the cruel abuse I'd got from someone on the forum earlier that day (NONE of which has ever been retracted I might add), and I'd run out of patience with waiting for Tzigane to shift into gear, so I decided to give the story a powerful kick-along. I know that was wrong of me, and that my private argument with another was not Tizgane's fault, but as you can tell, I still feel very unhappy about all these other things too.
Now as I've said more than once, I have serious issues with Kully's entire definition of roleplay. The idea that one person should not merely initiate but IMPOSE a storyline on many alarmed me deeply, and for precisely the reasons stated above. When Kully says, "Roleplaying is not always steering a storyline", she's absolutely right. But she also contradicts herself, because at the same time she condemns people for not letting Tzigane steer it all the way. Yes, the general plot must be pre-determined, and yes, it's going to be one person's idea at the outset, but there has to be much more room for input from every player involved - and not only did I not have that, I wasn't even allowed any freedom to deal with the nitty-gritty of individual posts. If you read the Korrlok posts on the thread, you'll see they were all very samey and dull, full of minor violent gestures and cliched, characterless threats, and that's because I wasn't allowed to do anything else. You have to give people more freedom of self-expression than that, or the only person who's going to take any enjoyment from the storyline is the originator. That is simply not fair, and it's why I will never rejoin the forum as long as storylines are run under such a stringent rule.
I'd like people to consider my point of view sensibly, especially the individual who sent me the abusive mails. You don't have to agree with me, but I want people to try and understand and respect my position. I'd also like Kully in particular to take these points on board and really try to assess them, rather than just getting angry that someone's dared to disagree with her (which has been her recent attitude to both myself and Glenn Toogood).
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Motley
New Settler
Knightmare Project 2004 - Isle of Wight College
Posts: 59
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Post by Motley on Feb 27, 2004 13:08:58 GMT
And you think I'm the only one, Kully ;D *snerk*
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Post by ringmasterrob on Feb 27, 2004 13:42:26 GMT
These PMs which you mentioned Saxon, would you PM me and tell me who did them if you do not want to announce it on here. I would be very interested to see who would do something quite like that, I was under the impression that this was a friendly happy community where people were mature and got along well even if their viewpoints differed. For someone to be sending flaming PMs then I find awful, as a moderator here I have tried to uphold a friendly community and not altered/edited many posts unless I have a very serious need to. The fe people I have had to warn have been about minor rulebreakings and misunderstandings and I have tried hard to be friendly about them rather than harsh. Whoever is doing this please apologise because no one should get abusive PMs or emails because they leave this forums.
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Post by SaxonStorm on Feb 27, 2004 14:06:54 GMT
Motley: No, you're not the only one.
Rob: Thank you for what you say, RMR, but no I won't reveal who sent me the abuse just as long as they stop sending me it. I'm sure they'll take your point when they read the post you made. Like you say, it was my business that I chose to withdraw from the forum, and if I want people to respect that then I have to show enough respect to be discreet.
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Post by ringmasterrob on Feb 27, 2004 16:12:26 GMT
Fair enough but one final message to the sender of the abusive PMs, don't send anymore or I hope Saxon will tell me if you do. If more are sent and I find out who it is not only will I be majorly angry with you but I will report you to Kully and do everything in my power to make sure you get your just deserts.
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Post by Kully on Feb 27, 2004 16:19:18 GMT
I suggest that whoever is sending these abusive messages top RIGHT NOW. If they do not, it is Saxon's choice as to whether he informs me as to who it is. If he does let me know, this person will be banned permanently from the forum, and if they are members of other Knightmare based forums the owner will be notified as a safeguard for their forum. If the abuser continues past this, I will take further action.
Thank you.
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Post by Kully on Feb 27, 2004 16:36:36 GMT
And you think I'm the only one, Kully ;D *snerk* And I suggest you stop your self righteous comments right now, young man. This is NOT a laughing matter and I appreciate that SS let us know about this. Different forums are run in different ways and this is the way the forum is run, to a degree. Bearing in mind I have NOT been reffing for long and have been looking for the best way to run it, this is what the result is. I am perfectly happy for people to let me know if they don't like it, otherwise the forum will never improve. In short, if you disagree with the way the forum is run, either let me know so I can improve, or don't play. Fair?
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Post by ringmasterrob on Feb 27, 2004 18:44:33 GMT
This seems fair enough, now any further comments and will the abuser stop this idiotic behaviour and send an apology?
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Post by SaxonStorm on Feb 27, 2004 18:50:49 GMT
Okay, everyone, the happy news is that the abuser's now mailed me with an apology, and admitted that she didn't understand the full facts. She also mentioned that she'd been drinking last night, so I recommend the mods keep an eye out for that in future, just to be on the safe side!
The matter isn't quite settled, however, as it's a BIT complicated for reasons I'd rather not go into in public, if that's all the same with you. I'll let RMR and Kully know the full score by PM, as that's only fair on them as the Admins, but I can sort things with the young lady in question myself, and I think she'll behave in future.
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